Derek Jeter: possibly overrated.
Posted by Tino Evangelou on July 7, 2008
The whole debate/article this refers to is a few weeks old now, but gosh darn it, I couldn’t resist throwing my hat in the ring and attempting to emulate Fire Joe Morgan once an old friend of ours made his case. Perhaps I was inspired by FJM’s recent jump into the “overrated” debate. Don’t bother counting how many times I link to them here, I’m aware it’s excessive. Take it away, Frank!
Derek jeter Overrated? NO WAY!
I should end this post right now. You have convinced me through skillful use of caps lock and exclamation points alone. Also, why is “overrated” capitalized but not “Jeter”?
Sometimes there are times where there are things I feel I need to address. Today, I feel the need to take something to task.
Frank is mad and he’s not going to take it anymore! Look out! What could have possibly drawn the wrath of such a levelheaded and objective baseball analyst?
Here is what I’m referring to:
In a Sports Illustrated survey of 495 Major League Baseball players in its June 23 issue, Derek Jeter was voted the most overrated with 10% of the vote. Struggling Giants lefthander Barry Zito was second at 9%, while Alex Rodriguez and Red Sox outfielder J.D. Drew were tied for third with 7%. Mets third baseman David Wright and Red Sox first baseman Kevin Youkilis tied for fourth at 4%.
If the basic premise of this article was “this is a stupid and meaningless poll” and was left at that, I’d tend to agree. Jeter, as we’re about to find out, may still be overrated by some people but has had a fantastic career. But Barry Zito? Can you be overrated if nobody thinks you’re good anymore? Alex Rodriguez is listed here, rather laughably, as the best player in the world, and if Frank had written this article about him I’d be totally on board. JD Drew? Eh, he’s having a pretty damn good season, though he’s been overpaid for much of his career. David Wright was perhaps the best player in the National League last season (even allowing that his Gold Glove is probably undeserved) and Kevin Youklis is a cheap, pretty decent hitter for a pretty good team. So yes: the poll is dumb, and unscientific, and if the player selections for the All-Star Game are any indicator, players themselves are pretty bad at judging which other players produce the most runs for their teams. Joe Sheehan did a pretty good job tearing them apart on BP, but unfortunately it’s a pay article.
It was offered to me (by a Yankee fan) that this could be taken as a “most overpaid” poll, but then it makes even less sense – sure, Jeter, Zito, and Drew could all be considered overpaid, but Wright and Youklis don’t make much money (in relative, millionaire baseball player terms). Anyway, back to Frank:
Now how in the world is Jeter overrated? Sure he doesn’t deserve to be paid $18 million, but neither does anyone else for that matter. So how else is he overrated? What are you judging him by? He’s a leader, he’s consistent, he’s clutch, and he’s a proven winner.
Using the argument “no baseball player deserves to be paid $18 million dollars” isn’t a good start in debunking any “Derek Jeter is overrated” arguments, although we’ve established it probably doesn’t have much to do with money in this particular case. Then, a parade of meaningless buzzwords used to, well, overrate players: consistent, clutch, proven winner. The kind of silly things people say that athletes like Kevin Garnett aren’t until they get surrounded by a top flight surrounding cast, and then, voila! They’re winners. Shocker.
Derek Jeter is a future Hall of Famer. If he had gotten drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates, he’d be a future Hall of Famer with no World Series rings, barring a mid-career megadeal with a big market team. It wouldn’t necessarily invalidate his ability as a player, just like it doesn’t inherently mean he’s a better player than Alex Rodriguez or any of the other superior players who didn’t have his good fortune.
He hustles on every play, he shows up to work and goes about his business the right way and does everything that is asked of him. He ALWAYS has a team first mentality, something lost on the game these days.
“Hustle” is another totally subjective and meaningless adjective people throw out to support players who aren’t very good, like David Eckstein. Not a good argument. As for the team first mentality, that was evidenced when he volunteered to move to third base so that Alex Rodriguez, a vastly superior defender, could remain at shortstop.
Oh, wait, that never happened.
Frank then goes on to list a whole bunch of awards Jeter has won. Some are more meaningful than others; I would argue that “All-Star Game MVP” and any minor league accolades mean slightly less than nothing. No award is really more important than objective analysis, which reveals that, yes, Jeter was at various times in his career a premiere offensive shortstop, and is a deserving future Hall of Famer. This is when Frank’s argument starts to really go off the rails, however:
The timing of this poll is questionable. It is taken at a time when the Yankees were struggling, Now if this poll had been conducted in October, when Mr. Jeter has been playing for the last 13 years then I think the results would be different.
Derek Jeter, regular season career: .316/.387/.459
Derek Jeter, postseason career: .309/.377/.469
His OPS is literally identical. The idea that he’s a superior player in the postseason is one of the myths about him, I think, that leads people to overrate him. Also, it’s been made abundantly clear Jeter wasn’t the only reason the Yankees made the playoffs every season. Implying as such may be one way in which he is, get ready for it, overrated!
I think that a lot of this is based on jealously. Jeter is THIRD on the Yankees ALL-TIME hit list. Now think about that. Think of everyone who’s put on the pinstripes and think how Derek is only behind Ruth and Gehrig. That’s amazing. But according to most people this is a feat that just any ol’ joe can do.
Impressive. He’s not nearly the player Ruth, Gehrig, or a number of guys behind him on the list were, but still impressive. Also, I don’t think anyone implied that “any ol’ joe” could play Major League Baseball, much less have as good a career as Derek Jeter. That’s a bit of a strawman argument, don’t you think?
But then again jealously rears it’s ugly face again. Why? Because he plays in New York, plays for the most storied franchise in professional sports, has fame, fortune, looks, women and the list can go on and on. I’m jealous of Derek too but I don’t think he’s overrated.
You’ve made that abundantly clear.
Maybe I’m still living off the Yankee dynasty of the late 90’s, but he’s still here and still performing.
Nothing you say makes me believe you’re in any way living off the 1990’s, not at all (except when you mentioned all the stuff Jeter did in the 1990’s). And if by “still performing” you mean “posting a .729 OPS this year”, then sure. I think this is the crux of why a few people say things like “Derek Jeter is overrated” – he’s had a great career, starred on several great teams, and now that he’s in the decline phase of his career and anyone dares question his ability, people like Frank bring up antecdotes about the 1990’s and how much of a “proven winner” he is and they invariably mention “the flip” or some other play he made because he had a chance to play in dozens and dozens of postseason games. Those things are all completely and utterly irrelevant to how good a baseball player Derek Jeter is in the year 2008.
Maybe it’s the fact he gets to live out his boyhood dream of playing shortstop for the Yankees.
A dream he generously agreed to continue living. For a mere $18 million a season! Another thing: people always act like Derek Jeter is devoid of greed or of ego. He probably deserved whatever he could get from the Yankees, but please don’t act like it matters that his dream was to play for the Yankees and he has an “aw shucks” demeanor about the game, unlike any other player. It’s insulting.
Maybe it’s because he’s dated women such as Jessica Biel, Jessica Alba, Mariah Carey, Vanessa Minillio. Maybe it’s because he has his own cologne.
Uh oh, you found me out! If it wasn’t for Jeter, I’d have a shot with any of those women! And so would Chris Coste! And Marlon Anderson! And Miguel Cairo! Also: irrelevant to the argument.
Whatever the case may be, everyone should get off the Hater-ade. It just makes you sound ignorant and like you have no idea what you’re talking about. If he’s overrated then please tell me who’s better and who has a resume in today’s game better than Jeter?
A Hater-ade reference! If Tiger Woods gets his own brand of Gatorade, does Derek Jeter get “Hater-ade: Yankee Shortstop, Captain, and Hero of the Free World” edition? Also, while I can’t find players with Jeter’s specific resume you posted (I mean, Yankees’ Minor League Player of the Year in 1994? I don’t think anyone else can make that claim to fame) I can find a few with pretty decent ones that are also better players. Like this guy or this guy or this guy.
If we want to put resume aside (Rickey Henderson, come back! Frank wants you on his team!) Hanley Ramirez is better right now, and so is a player that Frank trashed last year and proposed as overrated this year, Jose Reyes (.845 OPS, as of this second, and 2nd among shortstops in VORP). Jeter is ranked 12th in baseball in VORP currently…among shortstops.
See? You just said Jeter wasn’t overrated and then basically implied he’s the best player in the sport. Way to blow up your own argument.
I want to add that by the same measure, Jeter should’ve been the MVP in 2006 – I wouldn’t argue with you there. He’s also, historically, a better second half player. But during a decline year, if you’re going to say he’s not overrated, then subsequently overrate him using a totally nebulous argument and claim anyone who disgarees is jealous – well, sorry, you deserve the ridicule.
This isn’t a pleasant revelation to people who bristle at any suggestion that Jeter isn’t one of the game’s elite, or that he’s overrated based on past success. He’s making $18 million dollars to be a middle-of-the-pack SS this year and yet is still beyond reproach to some (non-stathead) people. How does that not make him “overrated” in some sense?
I’ve stated this many times in the past…Derek Jeter has the best life in the world. He plays for the New York Yankees (his boyhood dream), makes millions of dollars, has a list of women that would put any man to shame, is still young, he performs at a high level and enjoys what he does. Doesn’t get any better than that. Yep, I said it, he has the best all around life of anyone you could think of. Now try and debate that.
I’m sure there are some computer programmers out there who think Steve Jobs’ life is totally sweet. I also imagine there’s an argument to be made for any number of professional athletes or celebrities. Either way, still not relevant. That is, unless we take his VORG (Value Over Replacement Girlfriend) into account, which, if it tops Tom Brady’s, makes him the World’s Greatest Man.
Also, this highlights the irony of all of this: the man probably doesn’t need Frank making a bizarre argument to defend his present status as one of the game’s elite, and he probably doesn’t care that I’m tearing apart said argument, either. The dude has a pretty sweet life.
He’s still got a lot of baseball in him and there’s no question he is a sure future Hall of Famer.
Probably, and certainly. He’s no longer the player he was though, with his offense slipping and his defense as bad as ever.
The day he gets inducted in, we’ll remember him for so many things:
Please, God, say “The Flip”.
hitting the first HR in November,
They lost that World Series. Jeter’s supposed to be about winning. Boring. Not “The Flip”.
being the first to be named MVP of the All-Star Game and World Series in the same season (2000),
Two relatively meaningless awards. Good job picking up the slack, but I guess people will remember this just like they remembered Jeff Conine winning the All-Star Game MVP in 1995, or Scott Brosius winning the World Series MVP in 1998. When are you going to mention “The Flip”, anyway?
making one of the most memorable plays in postseason hisoty [sic] (The Flip),
YES! YES! THE FLIP! The only player in the entire world that could have conceivably made that play! I take it back. I take it all back. I hope they rename New York “Jeter City” and carve his face into the fucking moon so every time Jeremy Giambi looks up at it, he can cry tears of endless regret for not fucking sliding.
the guy that was face of the latest Yankee dynasty
I’ll give you that.
but most importantly..he will always be remembered as a Yankee.
Is that really most important? Doesn’t Luis Sojo get invited to Old Timer’s Day and get “remembered” as a Yankee too? You could do way better than this in defending the guy.
Now I know that makes people jealous…. but he earned it.
Other things I am jealous of: uncritical fanboy adulation on the internet.
The odds that Derek Jeter will see any of this is close to zero; the odds that Derek Jeter will continue to have a pretty sweet life regardless is pretty much the opposite of that. What does that have to do with his current ability as a baseball player?
A whole lot of nothing.
Update: I want to take the time to clarify that my lampooning of Frank’s article shouldn’t be held as an endictment on Hot Stove New York. There’s a good deal of pretty good writing over there and they’ve put a lot of work into their site, and if the Leitch/Bissinger slugfest taught us anything its that we bloggers (even lazy, sparsely-read part-timers like me) are all kind of on the same team. That said, I just couldn’t resist the temptation to have a little bit of fun.
Update to the Update: Wow, uh, on second thought…
Gennady said
Tino,
It can be argued that Derek Jeter deserves the money he is making for one reason: he brings people into ball parks. However, it could also be argued that that would happen regardless because he plays on the Yankees. Anyway, I always liked Bernie Williams better in the 90’s.
Mike said
I have an issue with the idea that baseball players make too much money, not mentioned by you, but by Frank. No one makes too much or too little money unless there is some sort of artificial limitation (minimum wage, salary cap, etc). In the NFL, you can say that players make too little because the owners have basically colluded to prevent the players from sharing adequately in the profits they are creating. But in baseball, there is no salary maximum, and if someone is willing to pay Derek Jeter $18 million to bat .290 then that’s what it’s worth.
That being said, is Jeter presently overrated? Obviously. He’d need to literally be the second coming of Christ to live up to the hype. But the fact is he’s a serviceable shortstop and batter, who puts asses in the seats, sells jerseys, and does play hard every day. But a lot of players are overrated, and a lot are underrated. But I think the biggest question here is: why are journalists concerned with the misinformed opinions of white dudes from the ‘burbs that make up 95% of the people that argue about which ballplayers are overrated? If you want that, listen to WFAN.
Tino Evangelou said
I agree. Overpaid in a strict “value to society” way, absolutely, but owners make enough money to be able to afford the contracts they’re dishing out so I have no problem with it. If fans really hate that players make so much money they should boycott the games, but they don’t because watching the games and spending money on them is a luxury they enjoy.
I digress. The poll here covered baseball players, but you could argue oftentimes journalists are less informed than some fans are, despite their “access”.
Tino Evangelou said
I also should point out that that’s different than the argument I mentioned about whether he’s overpaid relative to other players, which I don’t think was the argument (either in the initial poll of players or in Frank’s response).
Frank Negron Jr said
derek jeter is overrated by some bc of the money he makes. not his fault they gave him 180 million. but just bc he doesnt hit 40 HR or drive in 130 rbi every year doesnt mean he’s a bad player. he got that money bc hes a winner. and winner meaning he makes ppl around him better. he’s been to the playoffs every year since he’s come up, coincidence? maybe…but he has done ALOT to get there.
u ask most ppl who they pick to start a team around, n they’d answer derek jeter. oh wait, they did do that last season…go research that.
Tino Evangelou said
I think we’ve established that:
1) Nobody really thinks it’s “his fault” he got paid all that money. At the time he was the marquee player on the marquee team in baseball, and was a top shortstop. From a 2008 standpoint, yes, he’s overpaid relative to other players, but again, not his fault. Where I think people go wrong is somehow implying he plays without the financial motivations of other players (Yankee pride?), which is nonsense, and that he isn’t at least something of an egotist, which is also nonsense (see the A-Rod example), and
2) “Makes people around him better” and “winner” are two totally subjective, meaningless, bullcrap ways to measure a player’s value to his team (see the Kevin Garnett example among a billion others).
I’m also not sure if by “most people” you’re referring to the MLB player’s poll that had Jeter second in that category (although we already know that baseball players are pretty shitty at judging other baseball players, don’t we?) or another poll I’m not familiar with, but “most people” in either case are: objectively wrong. In fact, that’s a hilariously incorrect choice, and any MLB GM that would answer that way probably deserves to lose his job.
Doing “research” on a subjective, meaningless poll is not superior to objective sabremetric analysis. However, other than that (and everything else that I pointed out), your argument is sound.
Mike said
Frank: the fact that you say that most people would select Derek Jeter to build a team around, if true, is the best evidence for why he is overrated. Sure, he’s a winner, and he’s been instrumental especially in playoff victories over the years. But let’s be real. He’s no A-Rod. That’s not saying he’s bad, that’s just saying he isn’t as good as the best player in the league.
Tino: Just because Jeter makes a lot of money and didn’t move to 3B doesn’t mean he’s not a great guy. He may well be a saint who does have Yankee pride. Let’s not be so quick to criticize him for not moving to third, because we don’t know his reasons (maybe he thought the move would hurt the team because of his defense, or maybe he thought that A-Rod’s delicate psyche would be hurt by pushing Jeter to third, or perhaps it wasn’t Jeter’s decision to make.)
Tino Evangelou said
Oh, I don’t think there’s nothing at all to him being a clubhouse presence or any of that (although it certainly doesn’t mean he has more of an impact than a superior player). I just think that, given the fact most people (old school and sabremetric alike) think A-Rod’s a better shortstop, if he were really THE team player and THE leader people make him out to be, he would have volunteered to move. Hell, David Wright went out of his way to say he’d move if the Mets ever got A-Rod.
Either way, I don’t want to get too caught up in that side of it because judging Jeter’s personality is in itself a subjective argument, and the thing here is that we can argue pretty easily that, objectively, he doesn’t have the impact on a team that a lot of other players do.
Tino Evangelou said
Let me clarify further: I think using “clubhouse presence” or any other nebulous “character” term to grade a player one way or the other is usually pretty dumb. It’s impact is overstated, not just with Jeter, but with other players, both positively and negatively. I brought up the example of Jeter’s contract and him not moving to illustrate that whatever his motivation is he’s not a saint, but rather he’s a professional who gets paid a lot of money, and he shouldn’t be any more irreproachable than any other player.
Frank Negron Jr said
jeter has proven to be a winner, a champion, a mvp-caliber player, a leader, a clutch performer. arod has not proven ALL those things yet.
and those regular season stats as opposed to the postseason stats… remember during the yr jeter faces good and BAD pitching. in october he faces the BEST and still puts up numbers.
next thing im going to hear is mariano rivera isnt the greatest closer of all time
Tino Evangelou said
Luis Sojo: more rings than A-Rod. “Winner” and “Champion” are pretty much the same thing, so: redundant point. A-Rod has been the best player in the sport several times in his career. Jeter has not, outside of two seasons. Whatever, I think I already responded to that point about a dozen times.
Most players postseason stats don’t deviate much from their regular season stats – good players happen to be about as good in both, given a large enough sample size (regression to the mean and all that, as I’m sure you’re familiar with from the Bleacher Creature Handbook chapter on foundations in statistics). If you feel like actually reading anything about that sort of thing, this is a pretty good dismantling of everything you just said.
And who the hell said anything about Mariano Rivera?
Tino Evangelou said
I should say, “two seasons where he was in the argument”, for Jeter. Sorry about that.
Frank Negron Jr said
ok so lets say jeter is overrated…hes got 4 rings. enough fact to me. yea we know his defense is in decline, n we know he’s not at jeter-like numbers right now, so what? overrated right now, maybe…but we’re talkin about in general and if thats the case, then no he’s not. remember when jose reyes was the best ss in ny? yea i dont remember when that happened bc it never did, but i did see reyes falter down the stretch last yr n was a BIG reason why the mets lost the top spot in the east, but thats a different story.
Mike said
Frank then: Derek jeter Overrated? NO WAY!
Frank now: overrated right now, maybe
Jeter’s been good in the past. Now, overrated. Still a good player. Not the player you make him out to be.
Tino Evangelou said
Four rings is “enough fact” for you? Really stunning stuff. I look forward to your future rant on Paul O’Neill’s Hall of Fame candidacy and how he was the “clutchest right fielder ever”.
I’d be careful about “best shortstop in New York” quips for a while seeing as Reyes has a significantly higher OPS right now, is a better defensive player, and is a whole 9 years younger than Jeter (Hey, did you know Reyes had a better age 23 season than Jeter did? Who knew!). He had a terrible second half last year which brought his numbers into the kind of regression PECOTA predicted after 2006, but he’s taken it up another level this year.
Regardless, not relevant to the conversation in any way. As usual, an impressive job of rebutting arguments with hard evidence and not conjectural bullshit, or worse yet, changing the argument. Well done!
gozer said
I had a similar debate recently with a friend of mine. I wasn’t even really making a point about Jeter – I simply, in the course of a discussion, implied that at the very least Jeter is probably nearing the end of his prime, if for no other reason than that he’s 34-years-old, and while statistically anomalous years at an advanced age are far from unheard of (see: Jorge Posada), it doesn’t change the fact that invariably age is going to catch up with these guys – and probably sooner rather than later. I don’t think it’s unfair to suggest that Jeter’s best years are probably behind him. My Yankee-fan friend nearly bit my head off. It was as if I’d just slapped his mother. I swear, thin-skin when it comes to this Jeter character. It’s also funny how Jose Reyes always seems to pop up in the debate, as if Yankee fans are still indignant that another shortstop in New York had an MVP-type season (2006). And guess what? Reyes is quietly having another superlative year. Would I compare him to Jeter? Now why would I do something silly like that? Reyes is a lightning fast leadoff hitter with exceptional extra-base pop while Jeter is a clutch-hitting opposite field no. 2 hitter who excels at the intangibles. If you want to compare one shortstop’s defense to another’s, that’s fine, but I don’t see the value of comparing Reyes and Jeter as hitters. I’d compare Jeter to other No. 2 hitters around baseball, and if you look around the league, Jeter’s probably the creme of the crop. Likewise, there aren’t too many leadoff hitters that I’d take over Jose. But I’ve gone off-point, it seems…
Well, this makes me look dumb. « The Condor Never Sleeps At Night said
[...] Derek Jeter: possibly overrated. [...]
Mike said
Let’s be fair. Tino brought up Reyes first.
Tino Evangelou said
I sure did. As an example, not necessarily to make it a Met/Yankee thing.
This settles it. « The Condor Never Sleeps At Night said
[...] Derek Jeter: possibly overrated. [...]
My First Hate Comment! Hooray! « The Condor Never Sleeps At Night said
[...] I finally received one that wasn’t either via Facebook (because who cares?) or the product of my mockery of Derek Jeter worship. Take it away, Summer Johnson: i cant seem to understand what your point is… [...]